The Mandalorian Boba helmet derived from Sideshow bust? If so, what changes - Discussion

[BudaFett]

Did the license holder (Sideshow Collectibles) give consent? No
Did the original creator (Legacy Effects) give consent? No
Did the original artist give consent? Reportedly
Did the trademark holder give consent? No
Did the copyright holder give consent? No

Does one "yes" to the above questions cancel out the four "no's" of the license holder, original creator, trademark holder or copyright holder? The way the TDH Recasting guidelines are written doesn't say that it's okay to recast if someone in the supply chain gives consent. It lists everyone in that supply chain and states "or" when speaking to the stakeholders. If any of them say "no" then it's a "no" per the recasting guideline.

I don't need to know the the individual's identity. I am speaking about the individual's actions based on what you've shared. If TDH admin knows the identity of the maker, then they know the identity.

I am pointing out that the reported actions of the individual recasting the Legacy Effects helmet based on what you've shared, is in violation of the TDH Recasting rules. It just means what it means. Whether or not the guidelines are followed or not is what it is.

So if everyone needs to give consent in the supply everything is a recast. It doesn't matter if we're discussing Sideshow/Legacy, right?

Let's discuss gauntlets rockets as you sell them, right? They're not a "found part" they were made specifically for Boba Fett.

Did the license holder( efx/sideshow/anovos) give consent? No
Did the original creator give consent? Yes
Did the original artist give consent who designed it at ILM? No
Did the copyright holder give consent? No

So are you a recaster?

I would say no. You would say yes.

 

[boba87fett]

So if everyone needs to give consent in the supply everything is a recast. It doesn't matter if we're discussing Sideshow/Legacy, right?

Let's discuss gauntlets rockets as you sell them, right? They're not a "found part" they were made specifically for Boba Fett.

Did the license holder( efx/sideshow/anovos) give consent? No
Did the original creator give consent? Yes
Did the original artist give consent who designed it at ILM? No
Did the copyright holder give consent? No

So are you a recaster?

I would say no. You would say yes.

As you know, hand made metal components aren‘t molded and recast into more handmade metal components.

Sure someone could recast them into resin versions or 3D scan and 3D print them, but metal components can’t be 3d printed that I’m aware of.

Metal components are hand made from raw materials based on drawings, physical measurements, etc which isn’t recasting.

Regarding legal rights:

My understanding of UK copyright law is that the items made during the Original Trilogy have fallen out of legal protection in the UK, which is why RS Prop Masters and others can do what they do so openly without consequence. Meaning LFL has no legal rights to anything Elstree made 42 years ago.

In the case of Elstree Precision Co Ltd choosing to now continue to manufacturer components that they made about 42 years ago, I believe a more accurate set of answers is:

Did the license holder of the item give consent? No licensed item was copied. An original item was made again by the original maker, to the original specifications without the means of using an licensed company’s product. No licensed company has made the items made by Elstree to the original specifications - any company remaking have made idealized versions out of original specification.

Did the original creator of the item being made (Elstree Precision Co Ltd) give consent? Yes, they are also the makers of the continuation run.

Did the original artist of the item being made give consent? Yes, several original makers from the Original Trilogy participated in making the current components.

Did the trademark holder of the item being made give consent? No trademark holder in country of manufacture/sale.

Did the copyright holder of the item being made give consent? No legal copyright holder in country of manufacture/sale.

An original maker remaking something 42 years later using their own work to do so in a country with no pertinent copy right law is much different than a non-licensed prop replica maker using a mold from a current company’s work on another current company’s product that is actively being sold via a mold sold secretly in violation of the company’s policy.

 

[BudaFett]

I wasn't aware you reside in the UK.

 

[boba87fett]

I wasn't aware you reside in the UK.

I’m not the one making the components, nor am I a vendor or a company. I am a guy that found, organized and facilitated a group buy on a limited run of parts.

Is there a better way the recasting guidelines could be written in 2020?

Ultimately, if the community’s goal is essentially to gain access to screen used props that they saw last week on The Mandalorian (exagerating... kinda...) or any of these other upcoming live action shows coming out, then vendors or makers will never be able to satisfy all of the current recasting guidelines.

Why pretend anyone can satisfy getting permission from Disney, LFL, Sideshow, Legacy, EFX, Anovos, etc? Is it just to protect the site publicly at this point?

It seems like smoke and mirrors to start and when the current rules have or haven’t been applied, to a lot of folks it looks like careless hypocrisy at best and conspiracy at worst.

I think most people want screen accurate pieces and most people also want what they want as soon as they can get it.

There are incredibly talented makers, vendors, etc here that are forced to sell elsewhere. Look at the incredible stuff on IG that we all know couldn’t be sold here lol

Why not just update the recasting guidelines to say something like:

“If you can obtain a screen used prop without stealing it, you are free to make and sell copies of it so long as you prove it to the admin. When multiple copies show up, the owner of the replica closest in generation to the original ’claims’ community recasting rights through that line of replicas.”

Theres got to be a better way to write out recasting rules in 2020. I’ll bet more has happened in replica prop making in the last 2 years than the 20 years prior...

Just my slightly organized thoughts.

 

[BudaFett]

The TDH Code of Conduct like any site has is used to protect the Site not individual's own personal work. In *this* community it's always been about protecting member's work not Disney. Reaching out to a Legacy the same day this thread was posted was very strange. Recasting of current licensed work is shunned because it draws unneeded attentions which is why that's against the rules.

There has never been an issue with molding/selling of any props when the mold was acquired without stealing it. The Jango helmet, Stormtrooper CFR helmets, etc. The new helmet would be in that same group. A mold of a screen used item acquired legally.

If the helmet was made available right away to everyone this wouldn't be an issue. The fact is it's the FOMO that frustrates people. I would be frustrated too if I missed out on the Instagram announcement and made inquires.

 

[SolarFett]

I’ll speak for myself...I don’t have FOMO. I just think things should be done as legally and honestly as possible.

 

[Funkyred]

We run a very serious risk of ramifications from Sideshow and Disney if we allow this to happen . Lucas film has graciously turned a blind eye to ours and ours brothers and sisters actions in the costuming world regarding prop copying and replication. I believe Disney aren't as forgiving . But people are starting to make serious money because of the huge reach of social media and the renewed interest in Star wars . It's not just a hobby anymore when your making $1000's it's a business . The franchises are owned and managed by board members acting on behalf of shareholders , they have teams who protect their products viciously using cease and desist orders and litigation. The financial implications from this could be devastating to the person/s in question , this isn't a 40year old prop it's a modern of the moment item which we cannot condone it's replication . Admin must consider what the implications to themselves and the "owner " as well as us here on TDH could be. The ripples from this may turn into a Tusnami.

 

[RamSkirata]

By starting this thread I in no way intended it to take the turn it did. My goal was to have a discussion about the actual prop - what it is and what it is not. Not about the legality of it. Mainly also not even about ways of optaining replicas of it, but simply to better understand the actual item

 

[BudaFett]

While I agree with you on principle Funkyred it’s never been considered recasting when a production used mold entered the collectors market place no matter the source, as long as it wasn’t stolen.

We don’t agree on a lot but if this is in fact a production mold, which I have no reason right now to disbelieve, it’s no different from the ILM Jango Fett mold which has never been accused of being a recasted item.

I’ve also never seen members of the community make licensees/prop shops aware of items available either.

 

[Funkyred]

While I agree with you on principle Funkyred it’s never been considered recasting when a production used mold entered the collectors market place no matter the source, as long as it wasn’t stolen.

We don’t agree on a lot but if this is in fact a production mold, which I have no reason right now to disbelieve, it’s no different from the ILM Jango Fett mold which has never been accused of being a recasted item.

I’ve also never seen members of the community make licensees/prop shops aware of items available either.

I don't think Jango helmet is relevant tbh . This was way before social media and was probably conducted all on the forum and If I remember rightly happened in Australia . Not being to savy on US law I would probably think US copyright laws and industrial theft committed by a US citizen will fall under the FBIs remit .

The issue is the helmet is somebody else's intellectual property and has only recently been released and still being used in a produced TV show that most definitely will generate new merchandise . Disney have recently Trademarked/copyrighted the Boba Fett name and image rights and probably have big plans. They will have no interest with Jango molds from 20 years ago but I suspect that any unauthorized Boba Fett items relating to the mandalorian and maybe the spin off series that aren't authorised by the mouse will be served papers and in this case the source of the stolen mold identified and charged with industrial theft . This is how they work , you don't buy a company for billions and let people counterfeit stuff. Good luck to who ever it is, the repercussions financially and on future or present careers could be life changing .

 

[BudaFett]

The issue is the helmet is still being used in a produced TV show that most definitely will generate new merchandise . Disney have recently Trademarked/copyrighted the Boba Fett name and image rights and probably have big plans.

I suspect their copy right/trade mark over Boba Fett would include all kinds of merchandise including unauthorized books?

This is how they work , you don't buy a company for billions and let people counterfeit stuff. Good luck to who ever it is, the repercussions financially and on future or present careers could be life changing .

Disney/Lucas has allowed unlicensed replicas of costume parts since the dawn of the 501st. I wonder how many C&Ds have been sent out for Stormtrooper helmets, armor, etc since Anovos got the License?

Regardless. The helmet mold isn't owned by myself or Nino. It's just strange to see recasting accusations thrown out so quickly when everyone here owns a recast hero. I don't disagree with your premise that anyone who makes unauthorized merchandise runs foul of the Mouse. I don't agree that this is a black/white recast item.

 

[Funkyred]

I suspect their copy right/trade mark over Boba Fett would include all kinds of merchandise including unauthorized books?


Disney/Lucas has allowed unlicensed replicas of costume parts since the dawn of the 501st. I wonder how many C&Ds have been sent out for Stormtrooper helmets, armor, etc since Anovos got the License?

Regardless. The helmet mold isn't owned by myself or Nino. It's just strange to see recasting accusations thrown out so quickly when everyone here owns a recast hero. I don't disagree with your premise that anyone who makes unauthorized merchandise runs foul of the Mouse. I don't agree that this is a black/white recast item.

I think you will find it is Black and white no matter how you try and spin it . .

 

[BudaFett]

Funkyred I'll ask straight YES and NO questions to make sure I don't get confused. Maybe we can come to an agreement and see eye to eye here.

1) Everything that is a duplicate or a recast of property that Disney owns the asset of (images, molds, props, etc) would be considered Recasts?

2) Does that include RS Props under TDH COC and NOT UK Law?

3) Would any merchandise that uses Disney Assets be breaking COC including unauthorized books, stencils, decals?

 

[Funkyred]

The 3 questions are in no way relevant but simply there to distract. ......oh look a Jango mold.

To answer all 3 of your question tho the answer is No , it is my understanding that copyright law is different in the UK and US and not jointly enforced . And the fact that Lucas film didn't copyright their products for the characters 40 years ago. Where as Disney have now .

But we are not talking about items created in the 1970s, the world has changed and corporations are king .

The cats our of the bag and you let it out , nobody else knew about this molds existence which I find strange because we are a small community that share the same common intrests on insta and Facebook etc. But now it seems Legacy know and most probably Disney / Lucas film. They could be reading this in fact

 

[BudaFett]

I was asking about the TDH Code of Conduct which you posted. Not UK copy right law.

You're also correct that we all share the same interests and in this small community eco-system. It's also true that people have become much more concerned who they're selling to as things fall into the wrong hands quickly as we've seen already.

I also believe that even in small community there's lines we don't cross even with personal differences, opinions and "sides". We keep it somewhat civil like our disagreements over the years. Even with my disagreements with banned members I never went out of my way to contact a license holder inquiring about molds or potential recasts. That was handled internally where questions like this *should* have stayed. I can't believe we have members here reaching out like what's transpired.

 

[Mythos Fenn]

I was asking about the TDH Code of Conduct which you posted. Not UK copy right law.

You're also correct that we all share the same interests and in this small community eco-system. It's also true that people have become much more concerned who they're selling to as things fall into the wrong hands quickly as we've seen already.

I also believe that even in small community there's lines we don't cross even with personal differences, opinions and "sides". We keep it somewhat civil like our disagreements over the years. Even with my disagreements with banned members I never went out of my way to contact a license holder inquiring about molds or potential recasts. That was handled internally where questions like this *should* have stayed. I can't believe we have members here reaching out like what's transpired.

I mean, to me it would make sense that as part of TDH rules, that if there is an issue with possible recasting a current product people need to investigate on their own; seeing as the person that brings it up (the accuser) is the one required to bring evidence to the table in order to prove the before mentioned recasting problem. I don't really see a problem with Boba87Fett reaching out to the prop makers as he is doing specifically what the rules of TDH state - which is that if the helmet does in fact become a problem in the future, the members have done their homework of having "evidence".

That being said, this thread has definitely derailed from the initial question of the similarities between the two helmets. Personally, the sideshow bust and the screen used bucket definitely seem like they have different proportions to me. The TV used Fett helmet seems to have a taller dome compared to the Sideshow bust and the dent definitely seems different. Though that could just be eye trickery due to the paint jobs.

 

[Funkyred]

Questions like these seem to be handled behind

I was asking about the TDH Code of Conduct which you posted. Not UK copy right law.

You're also correct that we all share the same interests and in this small community eco-system. It's also true that people have become much more concerned who they're selling to as things fall into the wrong hands quickly as we've seen already.

I also believe that even in small community there's lines we don't cross even with personal differences, opinions and "sides". We keep it somewhat civil like our disagreements over the years. Even with my disagreements with banned members I never went out of my way to contact a license holder inquiring about molds or potential recasts. That was handled internally where questions like this *should* have stayed. I can't believe we have members here reaching out like what's transpired.

You may never have contacted license holders but other members have and that evidence was used to remove another member recently . This is not an isolated incident.

Dealing with issues internally doesn't work , all dealings are handled in secret on a need to know basis , RafalFett hinted at this earlier in the thread . There is no transparency when issues and concerns are raised ......Admin know and that's all you need to know is the standard reply .

 

[Sean Hebein]

So, are we going to get castings of this mold or not?

 

[stormtrooperguy]

This was a fun one to catch up on! I've been away from TDH for a bit so I'm behind the times. Are we _complaining_ about having access to casts from a production mold now? Is that a thing? Seems a bit weird to me

 

[Sean Hebein]

This was a fun one to catch up on! I've been away from TDH for a bit so I'm behind the times. Are we _complaining_ about having access to casts from a production mold now? Is that a thing? Seems a bit weird to me

Yes.